This is John Bachelor, conversation with Judy Dempsey of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

She's in Berlin. She's the editor-in-chief of Strategic Europe.

Looking at Olaf Schultz, the Chancellor of all Germany, is the trip, most recent trip and embassy to

Beijing for business augmentation and enhancement.

The trade between Germany and China, resources, finished products, manufacturing.

However, it points to the fact that having turned away from Russia the US Palatique for cheap energy these last decades because of the war in Ukraine

Germany's more and more turning towards the People's Republic of China, an equally brutal regime that supports Russia's aggression in Ukraine.

And Judy looks very hard at what that means for Germany's future. Judy Dempsey, Carnegie and Davenford International Peace, Strategic

Europe, she's the editor-in-chief. More of this tonight.

Well, the German voters aren't up to speed on this, but certainly the German think tanks,

the elites, the experts, those who study German foreign policy, they know exactly which way Germany is going and it is

your interest it's creating a new further ost politic so since the old German-Russian dependence of policy,

the policy is for the moment over,

Germany is now compensating

by actually beefing up the further eastern policy with China on

extraordinary dependence for rare earth materials for exports for products and so on without actually taking on board

what China is doing to Germany with cyber security with interference interference in the elections, with all its kind of aggressive

diplomacy and somehow it's and this German Chinese relationship is

actually doing serious damage to the German economy because it is postponing the day when Germany really

has to diversify and de-industrialise to break this dependence on yet another authoritarian regime.