This is John Batchelor, conversation with colleague Judy Dempsey, the senior scholar from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

She's in Berlin, commenting on the defense minister of the German Republic in the government for Friedrich Merritt.

His name is Boris Pistorius.

He is a social democrat, and yet the man drives very much the German war machine, such as it is,

and the ambition of a larger war machine to contend with the Russian aggressor.

Boris Pistorius is blunt, traveling to Washington, traveling to other parts of Germany.

Move it.

And Judy explains, what's over, what's here.

I measure that a rearm Germany in history is a sound of danger. In this instance, because it's an

integrated member of NATO, I think we're dealing with a fantasy. The fact is Germany is in the

position to be the leader for re-arming all of Europe, not just Germany. And as long as the Russian

threat is there, well, Judy explains, is Judy Dempsey on Boris Pistorius, Minister of Defense

for the German Republic. More of this tonight. I think I can answer this by quoting Pistorius,

what he said a day ago,

stop complaining, start producing.

He told the arms industry in Germany, particularly, but in other countries as well.

And I think there's a real shift in the defence ministry and in the chancellery that the old days are over.

The old days of depending on the United States

security umbrella is over, the old days of Germany just taking its security for granted by relying

on Washington. And above all, the old days are over vis-a-vis Russia. The innocence has gone.

The post-second World trauma is ending in terms of how

the Germans see Russia. And Pistorius now has no more illusions what is a stake. Interestingly,

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