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secure. This is John Batchel, a conversation with colleague Anatol Levin of the Quincy Institute,

just returned to Britain from Georgia, Georgia in the Black Sea, learning from Anatole that

Georgians say,

you know, the U.S. and NATO didn't fight for us when we were in trouble,

so what do we owe them?

In other words, they're more ambitious for the EU than they are for NATO.

And Russia, what does Russia make of Georgia's sudden switch from NATO to not NATO?

Anatole explains the Russian smile.

Here's Anatole even on Georgia.

Up to date, 2025,

which is 17 years after the fragmentation caused by Russian interference in politics.

And there's a new normal.

More of this tonight.

So you see, there's a kind of odd balance.

...