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This is John Batchelor,

conversation with Katrina Vanenhovell,

the editorial director and publisher of the Nation magazine, about the Russian

election and the announcement by the EU that it is rearming across the board, money devoted to Ukraine's

arms, money devoted to rearmament of the members of NATO and the EU and what this means for the 21st century, what this means

for right now, what this means for conversations to end the war in Ukraine, but are we at the beginning of a standoff between NATO, the

EU, and Russia? Katrina observes especially about Europe. Katrina Vennenh, editorial director, publisher of Nation magazine, a columnist The Washington Post.

Obviously you're going to need Ukraine and Russia at the table.

Who else the United States? You are going to need the United States?

Europe at the moment is facing real challenges. I mean Germany's

de-industrializing its economy is worse than Russia's even with the sanctions on Russia. The EU is facing deficits.

NATO is facing deficits. The danger of moving these funds to fast-tracking Ukraine, for example, into NATO or the EU funding.

What you're doing is militarizing so that any alternative security arrangements

that might reassure Ukraine in another way in the context of a post-war armistice

or peace agreement is going to be very tough. I think much will have to wait until

...