This is John Batcheler speaking with Judy Dempsey, the editor and chief of Strategic Europe

for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, about the proposal by President

Macron for strategic autonomy, that is a European army, and all of its attended defense mechanisms.

Judy answers bluntly, how is the conversation in Berlin?

How is the conversation in Rome? How is the conversation in Rome? How was the conversation in Madrid, the

capitals of the EU? No conversation.

Here's Judy Damse to explain. They really just don't want to talk about it.

More of this later tonight.

Thank you.

John, this is so interesting this question

because the Europeans don't want to know about the European army.

There's a kind of pacifist element in some countries, particularly Germany.

There's a non-treat perception, especially in the southern countries,

Spain, Portugal and Greece. The Nordics understand it completely, but they have totally tight individual defense apparacises

but it's not a debate coming up and Europeans don't want to discuss it and European leaders except for Macron doesn't want to discuss it.

At the end of the day, Germany doesn't want to discuss it.

At the end of the day, Germany doesn't want to discuss any of these strategic issues,

and that that's the big downside of European security in NATO.