This is John Batchelor, conversation with my colleague Judy Dempsey of the Carnegie Endowment for International Pies in Berlin

about the proposal to enlarge the European Union from 27 states to however Moldova and Ukraine are first up but enlarging the

EU was a challenge and lute july lays out what the EU must come to terms with in growing and one is to give up on unanimity.

There are others.

There's Judy Dempsey, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Editor-in-Chief of Strategic Europe on the road ahead for the

Europeans, our best allies.

More of this tonight.

Much more. It's, I mean, the jury is that this is chicken and egg.

Those who don't want enlargement will say we cannot have enlargement until we've

of reform.

What does the reform mean? Changing the voting rights, changing the whole idea of consensus,

changing the way agricultural subsidies of finance, changing the way the whole EU is finance. This will take

ages and this plays in the hands that those who don't want to enlarge

because it's difficult and it's complicated and upsets voting.

However, those who do want to enlarge and as quickly as possible say,

let's not wait for reform, we can do this hand in hand with enlargement as we did in 2004 when all the

Central European and East European countries joined the European Union including Cyprus and Malta. It was very exciting.

The problem is that one has to be very, very honest and actually say that enlargement does

complicate matters, it does make decision-making more complicated.