This is John Batchel, a conversation with colleague Katrina Vandenhova of the Nation magazine

about Ukraine, the internal strife in Ukraine, not about Russia, about inside the bickering, the civil war, Katrina calls it.

Here she is to explain what happens to Ukraine in future, not positive.

More of this tonight.

I don't think, and I heard Ambassador Freeman and various professors on the Zoom call on the weekend,

especially Nikolai Petro, very wise professor about Ukraine, I think the turmoil will continue inside Ukraine because the civil war

which preceded the Russian war. And I think we're seeing that in Zelensky's panic. But Europe,

you can't have a stable Europe with the way Russia is being treated and dealt with. I'm not saying

it should be treated like a lily flower,

but it has to be part of nuclear agreements, of other international agreements,

if Trump maintains international engagement.

But it's very self-destructive on the part of Europe, it seems to me,

that it's so can't deal with its own crises, so it's going to foment others to kind of distract.