This is John Batchel, a conversation with my colleague Ernesto Arujou,

former Foreign Minister of the Republic of Brazil, about the reports from Brazil over these last days

that Haribosanaro, the president of Brazil, won back before Lula de Silva,

is to be charged, indicted with conspiracy against the government, with an assassination plot in some

fashion. The indictment is delayed until the new year, I'm told by Ernesto. But what's driving this?

The Lula de Silva government for years has been persecuting Bolsonaro since the election of late 22.

Alexander de Morais is the Supreme Court Justice who is at the center of all of these decisions,

the releasing of Lula from jail so he could run for a third term, the persecution and pursuit of

members of the Bolsonaro government,

and now this particular detail of accusing Bolsonaro being part of a plot

to kill Lula to Silva and to, I guess, bring down the government, anarchy.

Ernesto has an explanation.

It's surprising.

It includes Donald Trump and Elon Musk.

Here's Ernesto to explain.

Wow.

More of this tonight.

One impression that many people have is, oh, this is a reaction to the new administration of the U.S., okay, which is perceived as a hostile to, in a way, to Lula's government or to the Supreme Court.

Mainly because Elon Musk is seen as an enemy by those people and a potential figure

who would turn the Trump administration against those people in Brazil because of everything

that has been done to ban acts from Brazil

and some sort of a strong armed competition between Alan Musk and the Supreme Court in Brazil.

...