This is John Bachelor.

Conversation with my colleague Judy Dempsey, the editor-in-chief of Strategic Europe for the

Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

She's in Berlin about the fractiousness between Berlin and Paris

between Olaf Schultz, the Chancellor of Germany and President Emmanuel Macron.

The enmity, as Judy identifies, has long been there, but now these bumpy days about Ukraine. It's coming out in a fashion that is alarming. At some

point, Mr Schultz has been provoked by Mr McCrone who said we might have to send troops to Ukraine.

A love Schulz responded, no, no, no, immediately.

And now we have Mr McCrone suggesting that those who are

dissenting on Ukraine are cowards he's used the word cowards. Here's Judy explaining the relationship

between Schulz and McCrone right now, vital to understand how Ukraine will

withstand the Russian offensive?

Well, philosophically and politically they don't see the same way, that's understandable,

but after 1945 and with a huge amount of encouragement from the

United States, Germany and France put away centuries of the

to pull together and make what is today the European Union.

It's always has its ups and downs, but when the two

won't don't work, the European Union doesn't move forward.

But this time, there's so many disputes over energy,

over carbon emissions, over taxation,

over relations with China, over Ukraine, over an enormous wide range of issues, and I think

basically the chemistry between both leaders actually doesn't work.

...