This is John Batchel, a conversation with the historian James Holland, his new book, Casino 44,

The Brutal Battle for Rome. Here James describes in the first days the Red Bulls, the 34th Infantry

Division, this is Fifth Army under Mark Clark, across a flooded valley and then up the mastiff

towards Monteasino.

The Germans were very thin at the top,

and James describes how close, how very close this battle came to be won by the Fifth Army

in the first days.

What followed, of course, was months of torment and massacre on both, on all sides.

The battle from Monte Cassino, this is December, 1943 to June 1944,

Italy, the Italian campaign.

Much more of this tonight. James Holland.

Yeah, just enough of the town, and I mean, it's a, it's a horror story.

But fortunately for the Red Bulls at that point, because of the battles that have already

taken place, you know, against British Tencore and the Gariliano, against the Texans,

and because of Operation Schingle, the invasion of Anzio, the line at Comona Casino is incredibly thinly

held by a very, the 44th, the German 44th Infantry Division, which has been absolutely

hammered since it first arrived on the front back in November, 1943. So they are able to eventually

get across the upper Rapido Valley, which is this

waterlog valley. They are able to get up into the foothills and then kind of stop pushing up onto the

Monte Cassino massive. And it looks like they've got the whole thing in their hands. But just

at that moment, Monte Cassino itself, the mountain overlooking the Liri Valley and the Rapido

Valley and the town itself,

...