James Holland, the second hour of our conversation about Casino 44, the Battle for Rome.

The horror is what happened to the civilian population from Naples to Rome.

Starvation, prostitution, outright, crazy violence, gunfighting, shooting right into people trying to get water from their village well.

The violence was part of war fighting in the mid-20th century. Here in the 21st century,

we pay great deal of attention to the damage to a civilian population when there's war fighting going around it.

They did not have that skill set in the mid-20th century of the Second World War.

The first war had been fought in a very narrow band between Belgium and France, but the

second war was ranging over the population on mountain sides

and small villages along the river of Italy. This would happen again in France, but nothing more

obvious than horror than to read these stories in James Holland's new book. Starvation,

could it have been mitigated by the Allies?

I'm not certain, but I see no evidence of it in administering to the American government

or what passes for government after Naples is conquered and after Rome is conquered.

Casino 44, the Battle for Rome.

Italy has a population around 40 million in 1939 and not much less in 1944.

And of course, you know, most of those 40 million are living in the valleys,

which is precisely the route for which the Allies are trying to advance

and the Germans are trying to defend.

So, you know, casino town is 100% destroyed.

All the villages around about are 90% or plus destroyed. The scale of destruction is just

appalling. And all the civilians caught up in the middle of this are just abandoned. You know,

they're abandoned materially, spiritually, physically, and they've just got

...