This is John Bachelor, conversation with Evan Thomas, the author of Road to Surrender,

three men in the countdown at the end of World War II. This is the closing months of the war in the Pacific. Henry Stimson is one of the three men.

Carl Tui Spats is the second ahead of strategic bombing. Henry Stimson is the Secretary of War, and the Japanese Foreign Minister Togo.

This particular event concerns the target list for the atomic weapon then being developed.

Henry Stimson is extremely concerned about using this weapon.

Evan Thomas very carefully this weapon.

Evan Thomas very carefully explains why.

And then General Groves ignores the Secretary of War.

More of this later tonight.

Stips and says no, I'm the decider here.

You know, there's a lot of delegation from the civilians, the War Department of civilians, the

Secretary of War, to the military, but in this case,

a lot of delegation of authority, but in this case, Stimson says to Groves, I'm the decider,

this is, I'm deciding, and we're not gonna bomb Kyoto. Why? Because it's the cultural

capital of Japan and it will make us look like war criminals if we if we take it out.

And I think Stimson psychologically is feeling he can't stop this project but at least he can save Kyoto and he's

pretty firm with with groves we're not going to do that he also goes a little farther

and takes a couple of other

cities off the target list. They come back. In fact,

Groves, who is a hard-nosed guy, puts Kyoto back on the target list.

Not once, not twice, but three times each time Stimson has to take it off,

finally with the backing of the President of the United States.

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