Hello there, I'm Chuck Todd. I just got off the meat press set here on Sunday wrapped up interviews with the Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken, former US ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, also had an exclusive with the West Virginia Democratic Senator Joe Manchin sitting here now with Robin Wright, contributing writer and columnist for the New Yorker.

Robin, welcome. It's good to talk with you and see you.

Great to meet you. So you've, this has been your beat for a long time. And as much as we're talking about the moment, you know, we're living in this war moment a moment. And there's a part of me that's hesitant to take anybody at their word right now because war is that unpredictable.

But where is it is this you know, I've heard different scenarios, different ways that this has been called that for you that some Europeans call this call Ukraine their 9-11.

And some say, no, this is Ukraine is Europe's Syria. And I thought both comparisons were interesting. I think I got an idea of why people are calling them that, but what do you make of those comparisons?

Well, I think Russia's intervention in Ukraine is bigger than 9-11, far bigger than Syria. This is really a lot better.

Yes, and you know, you have people talking about this is the worst war of the 21st century. And the fact is we've had some hellish wars this century.

America's longest war, the Iraq war, the idea that this could surpass it. And in many ways, this is not just about Ukraine. This is really not just about Russia's place in the world.

It's really about rival ideologies. It's about the changing the balance of power in the 21st century. It's about Putin himself and kind of the role of autocrats versus democracy and Democrats.

It's in many ways going to define the next generation or two.

Well, this is arguably the biggest proxy war between the West and Russia since Vietnam.

Well, it's not so much a proxy war, but... It's a right. You wouldn't call it sort of a half proxy, right? Because he's not fighting Ukraine. He's fighting the West, right? I mean, in some ways.

It's absolutely the West versus Russia. This is a war kind of one removed and that we are backing up the Ukrainians. We're providing them with weaponry, but we're not fighting ourselves.

It doesn't look like we're going to anytime soon because the danger is that there's even a worse war that could break out.

And this is where Putin has been very clever. He will take what he wants, knowing that the West, because Ukraine is not a NATO ally, won't go in in a way that will stop him.

How do we harness the power of what appears to be some Russian disillusionment with this?

Oh, that we could. And it's inspiring to see the young get out in the streets, willing to be a rest, knowing that this could affect their professional lives, their personal lives, for the rest of their lives.

But the numbers are still comparatively small. And when you look over the last 20 years at the kind of people power movements, whether it's the Arab Spring, where millions turned out and toppled four leaders, or whether it's the Green Movement in Iran, where millions turned out in the streets and more than 30 cities.

And yet they were repressed. So the idea that we're anywhere close to the kind of public challenge to Putin is an illusion. And we have to be realistic.

I get that, but how does this end with him in power?

Well, that's just it. I mean, that's, I keep coming.

Look, I threw Secretary Blinker with Speechless when I asked him that question, which by the way, I understand because there's no good answer for an official in the United States on that question.

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