Welcome to another edition of the War on the Rocks podcast series and this is actually

I always say it's a very special additional on the rocks podcast series but this is

very special for two reasons. One it's the first we're doing about a piece of fiction

and two it is the the first that we're doing about a piece of fiction.

And two, it is the first that we're professionally

recording, courtesy of the New America Foundation.

So I just want to thank the New America Foundation

where Peter works, and I'm here with Peter Singer and August

Cole, August of the Atlantic Council and Peter Singer of the New America Foundation.

So thanks for joining us, guys.

Thanks for having on this.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about this new book you have coming out, Ghost Fleet.

I read it.

It's very exciting.

It's called Ghost Fleet, a novel of the next world war.

And why don't you tell us what you were trying to do with this, because this is a bit of a departure

from what you guys have done in your careers.

So a novel is an unusual way to approach. done in your careers?

So a novel is an unusual way to approach some of the bigger questions in national

security, but we both have, I think since we were young, really loved reading the books that Tom Clancy put out in his early days and

felt like that gave us a lot of perspective on informing our kind of understanding of international relations of security.

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