Peace in Ukraine Is Not a Real-Estate Deal

Radio Atlantic

The Atlantic

Politics, News, Society & Culture

4.4 • 1.9K Ratings

🗓️ 21 August 2025

⏱️ 32 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

There was so much symbolism in President Donald Trump’s two most recent international summits—in Alaska last week with Russian President Vladimir Putin, and then at the White House this week with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. In this episode, we talk with Anne Applebaum, who has been studying Ukraine and Russia for decades and understands their leaders’ underlying motivations. And we speak with politics and national-security writer Vivian Salama, who knows what Trump’s limitations are and explains what the next possible moves could be. – – –Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	When you have a Pixel 10, you may get asked a few questions. Like, what is that? How did you do that? And can we use your camera instead? Ask more of your phone. Google Pixel 10. The past seven days brought two very strange international summits.
0:32.6	One, where President Donald Trump rolled out an actual red carpet on American soil for
0:39.4	Russian President Vladimir Putin.
0:41.7	A high-stakes moment on the world stage.
0:44.3	It was Putin's first time back on U.S. soil in more than a decade.
0:48.1	He received a grand welcome, complete with a military flyover and a red carpet rollout.
0:53.0	A few days later, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky visited the White House with a military flyover and a red carpet rollout. A few days later, Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, visited the White House with a hastily mobilized posse of European leaders.
1:01.0	The historic sequel, President Trump and Ukraine's President Zelensky, back at the White House.
1:06.0	The two leaders striking a cordial, collegial tone and also somewhat optimistic.
1:11.7	The summits were historic, momentous, if more than a little chaotic.
1:17.7	And yet it's unclear what, if anything, changed as a result of them.
1:21.7	The war grinds on.
1:23.6	Civilians are still dying in Ukrainian cities, with Russian strikes hitting even as Zelensky was in Washington.
1:30.6	Trump approached the two Ukraine talks with his usual brand of optimism.
1:34.8	Let's close the deal, win the Nobel Prize.
1:38.0	But, and this will come as a huge shock, ending a war is not so simple.
1:45.1	I'm Hannah Rosen. This is Radio Atlantic.
1:51.4	To help us understand what happened this week, what changed, what didn't, and what really needs
1:57.7	to happen for this to end well, we have staff writer Ann Applebaum, a longtime reporter on both Russia and Ukraine, and staff writer Vivian Salama, who covers politics and national security. Vivian, welcome to the show.
2:10.5	Thanks for having me. And thanks for joining us. Thanks, Hannah. And before we begin, I want to say that we're recording this conversation at 10 a.m. Eastern
2:18.2	time on Wednesday, because anything could happen.
2:21.9	This is an evolving story.
	...

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