This is the Friends of History Debating Society, I'm John Matthew with my colleague Michael

Jan, at Michael Underline Janus, where to see Michael's reporting, and also this podcast

you'll see it on Michael's Twitter feed.

And Michael has been another six or seven days at the Darian gap watching the migrant

camps grow, watching the flow of migrants come through the 60 mile long up and down extremely

dangerous crossing rivers, up to your shoulders are higher, holding onto ropes, very fast

rivers, going down muddy cliff sides with no handles whatsoever, just slipping all the

way down, traveling with thousands of people you do not know into jungle where lurks, bad

actors, very bad actors.

Michael, the question in New York now, and around the world is, what is driving the refugees,

the migrants, the immigrants, it is not just getting to the United States, you've been

to Greece and you've watched the migrants crossing in from Turkey, you've been to the north

of Africa, you've watched the migrants attempt to get it into the EU, you've been to the

wania watching them be shoved across the border by the Belarusians, this is before the

war to get into the EU, right now what is the status of the Darian gap or the camps growing

we talked a week ago and you were going to visit both camps, what is happening now?

Yeah, there's more than two camps, I mean there's Las Blancas and then there's San Vicente

camp which are outside of the gap, but now inside of both of those camps have been expanded

and it's clear that Las Blancas camp is also still being expanded, you can see them pouring

concrete and digging out there and that sort of thing.

And now deeper inside the Darian gap, for instance, at a Baja Chiquito village where you

and I have reported on many, many times, they just opened up or didn't open, but they've

...