From the opinion pages of the Wall Street Journal, this is Free Expression with Jerry Baker.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Free Expression with me, Jerry Baker, from the Wall Street Journal editorial page.

We're delighted you're listening to this podcast. If you like it, please be sure to subscribe at Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Please also be kind enough if you would to leave us a favourable review on Apple Podcasts and indeed anywhere else you may find us. At the journal's editorial page, we believe passionately in free expression. And so each week on this podcast, we explore in-depth and candor with the help of a leading commentator, a major

issue of topical importance, historical significance, or just something that we find deeply

fascinating. So this week, as fighting rages on in Ukraine, we're going to examine the role of

China in the rapidly evolving world order inaugurated by Vladimir Putin's war.

And I'm delighted to welcome to the podcast this week, Orville Schell, one of our most

prominent observers of and writers on China.

He's the author of many books on modern China, and is currently the Arthur Ross Director

of U.S.-China Relations at the Asia Society.

He joins me now.

Orville Shell, thank you very much indeed

for being here. Pleasure to be with you.

But Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine came just after he concluded, literally days after he

concluded a comprehensive pact with Xi Jinping, China's leader. This alliance of autocrates

would, its authors have said, have no limits. But since the invasion, China has steered a careful

course, I think it's fair to say,

expressing guarded support for Russia, certainly condemning the West sanctions against Moscow,

but repeatedly expressing concern about the progress of the war and its wider implications.

So Orville Schell, how do you think Xi Jinping feels right now about what's going on in Ukraine?

Well, I think it's an incredibly awkward time for him because, in effect, when they made the

joint declaration he and Vladimir Putin just before the Olympic Games, it was, in effect, a

...