When the biographies are written, years from now, we'll perhaps find out.

Yeah, that's the task for future historians.

Welcome to the Mona Charin Show.

Thanks so much for joining me.

I'm delighted to welcome today, Dalibor Rojach of the American Enterprise Institute,

who is an expert on all things European, especially

Central European. And of course, as you can imagine, we are here to discuss Hungary and what

happened, the kind of amazing election result that we saw there last week. We have devoted a lot of attention

to a tiny country. Well, let's say the population of Hungary is about the same as that of New

Jersey. And yet, it has an outsized role in world politics. So let's start there. Why was Hungary's election so

important? For all, thank you so much, Mona, for him on your excellent show. It's a real,

real trepies to be having this conversation. Hungary, I think, matters for a number of reasons.

The most kind of obvious and pedestrian one, if you care about European policy, is that

Hungary has been the weakest link in European unity and the efforts to present a sort of coherent and constructive front

in response to both the challenges facing Europe in the East, Russia's war of aggression

against Ukraine, but also in the face of Europe's continuing ongoing problem with energy independence.

Europe as a continent doesn't really have access to great many sources of fossil fuels.

It's effort that decarbonization have been haphazard.

Ukraine, I mean, Hungary has been one of those places, one of those countries that have insisted on maintaining this energy dependence that existed on Russian sources of fossil fuel.

But I think more importantly, Hungary matters, because under Victor Orban's rule for 16 years,

it was a living experiment, living example of what post-liberal governance might look like.

And for many people on America's post-liberal right,

...