It's the Brian Lairn Show on WNYC.

I'm producer Amina Serna filling in for Brian today.

Good morning again, everyone.

We now turn to President Donald Trump's mass deportation campaign.

Yesterday, on Truth Social, President Trump announced that he has fired Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Knoem.

In the post, Trump said he will elevate Oklahoma Senator Mark Wayne Mullen to the Cabinet Post.

This is the first time in this term that Trump has replaced anyone in his cabinet.

Noam will be appointed as a special envoy for, quote, the shield of the Americas.

As the news broke yesterday afternoon, media outlets reported that Trump was critical of one exchange in particular that took place with

Republican Senator Kennedy earlier this week. Noam was asked during a congressional testimony

about her role in improving contracts for a $220 million ad campaign encouraging immigrants

to self-deport. Caitlin Dickerson is a Pulitzer Prize-winning staff writer at The Atlantic, who has been covering

immigration since the first Trump administration. Her recent piece in the Atlantic is a profile

of a former New York City mixed immigration status family, who has just recently moved back

to Mexico, where the family's undocumented father is

originally from. She joins us now to talk about the latest news and her reporting. Caitlin,

welcome back to WMYC. Hi, thanks so much for having me. We're going to be joined by the couple

in your latest Atlantic article in just a few to talk about how the Trump administration's hostility towards undocumented immigrants is forcing mixed immigration status families to make some really hard choices.

But first, I want to ask you for your take on the latest news.

On Tuesday, Homeland Security Secretary Christine Nome was met with skepticism from Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana, who argued during a hearing that more than $200 million in ad campaigns to encourage immigrants to self-deport.

He was deeply skeptical of why this costs so much. So let's hear a little bit,

it's a little under a minute of that exchange. How do you square that concern for waste, which I

...