This is CBS I on the World with John Bachelor.

Here's John Bachelor.

To New Zealand, to Wacato University, to Ruben Steph, a senior lecture at Wicato in

Geopolitics to educate me about the world from the point of view of the North Island or the South Island,

New Zealand. This is four hours or more by air from the mainland of Australia, which is 24 hours

by air, I believe, from where I'm sitting, but I've never

done the trip.

It's a pleasure to welcome Rubin here at the beginning of 2024.

There's a new government in place, and that new government has a foreign policy that's part of its economic policy

So I begin by asking in general

Rubin a very good day to you the The foreign policy of New Zealand, is there a word that

characterizes it because over these last years there's been the question of New Zealand's

reluctance to do with nuclear weapons, with

nuclear energy, reluctance to do with entangling with rivalries in the rest of the

world. Is there a word today that describes this new government?

Good evening to you.

Good evening to you, John. That's a tough question. I think from an external viewpoint what a word might be normalizing might

be how I think many countries around the world see the trajectory of New Zealand's foreign policy, that we have come from the 1980s of this foreign

policy which has sought independence or at least a greater level of independence from

our traditional allies over things like nuclear

power vessels nuclear weapons being kind of part of the five eyes and the

the Western, broader Western Alliance if you will, but always seeking to be a step removed and that's

...