If you had a magic wand and could change things about modern leaders, what would you pick?

Pry them open and make them come face to face right up close and personal with their own vulnerability.

Friction is a huge psychological burden.

Without friction, we would not have fire and we would not have sparks.

I got to get at night.

I got to hide it.

They end up spending a lot of time ruminating.

Hi, I'm Bob Sutton.

I'm an organizational psychologist and Stanford professor, and this is the Friction Podcast.

On today's episode, we're joined by Nancy Kane.

She's a Harvard Business School professor, a historian, and most important for today,

she's author of Forged in Crisis.

This wonderful book tells the story of five famous leaders who showed extreme courage

and persistence in difficult times.

We invited Nancy to the podcast because she has such a fresh perspective on power and strength.

Nancy's work shows how many of our most prized leaders, leaders who led nations and groups

through the most difficult times, draw clarity, strength, and magnetism from their

own vulnerability and emotional awareness.

How do you define friction?

What are some of the emotional connotations for you?

So I think of friction as a combination of, you know, volatility and uncertainty,

certainly, unexpected complexity, the ambiguity that goes with it. And in the book, each of the people

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