Michael Pollan’s journey to understand consciousness
Fresh Air
NPR
4.3 • 36.1K Ratings
🗓️ 19 February 2026
⏱️ 46 minutes
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Summary
Science journalist Michael Pollan has written extensively about the therapeutic benefits of mind-altering psychedelics. His new book, ‘A World Appears,’ asks, what is consciousness? “Consciousness has kind of become the secular substitute for the soul,” he tells Terry Gross. Pollan also talks about current studies on consciousness and whether plants and artificial intelligence have consciousness.
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | This is fresh air. I'm Terry Gross. Forgive me, I'm a little bit hoarse today. |
| 0:05.0 | One of the many things you may know my guest journalist Michael Pollan for is his book, |
| 0:10.0 | How to Change Your Mind, with the new science of psychedelics teaches us about consciousness, |
| 0:15.4 | which was published in 2018. It was in part about the therapeutic use of psychedelics |
| 0:20.3 | to change your consciousness to relieve trauma or help tone down the fear of death for people who were terminally ill. |
| 0:27.6 | His new book explores consciousness, but from a different perspective, like, what does it mean to be conscious? |
| 0:33.4 | What creates consciousness? |
| 0:35.2 | And how it distinguishes humans from, for example, plants, |
| 0:38.4 | but many botanists are starting to believe plants have some form of consciousness. |
| 0:43.8 | Another question pollen deals with is one many of us have been asking, |
| 0:48.5 | can artificial intelligence ever develop consciousness? Would that be a good thing, or not? The book ends with pollen in a cave, |
| 0:57.9 | sent there by a Buddhist teacher who founded a Zen monastery and wanted pollen to explore the idea |
| 1:03.7 | of consciousness in a cave and experience how consciousness can change by meditating all alone |
| 1:10.3 | in a remote area for an extended period of time. |
| 1:14.1 | He's a long time meditator, but this extreme version was something new. |
| 1:18.7 | Pauline has kept up with new developments in psychedelics. |
| 1:22.0 | He co-founded the University of California Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics, |
| 1:27.1 | which, among other things, |
| 1:28.6 | publishes a newsletter about the latest research into the use of psychedelics in therapeutic |
| 1:33.4 | settings, and the latest laws that are loosening or restricting the ability to conduct such |
| 1:39.3 | research. Pollan is also known for his writing about food and plants. His books include The Omnivore's Dilemma, The Botany of Desire, Cooked, and This Is Your Mind on Plants. |
| 1:51.2 | Michael Pollan, welcome back to fresh air. |
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