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listening. Terms apply. This is the Friends of Mr. Debating Society. I'm Gaius and Germanicus

is here and we're going to do a little irony. I've been reading a new book,

James Holland, the historian, English historian, working through the major battle set pieces of

the Second War. This is the Battle of Montecisino in 1944. Germanicus has been there. I'm not.

I'm only reading about it.

But this is Italy, and Montecino was a 6th century A.D. monastery at the top of a very high construction in the mountains that go up the spine of Italy, and it looked down on Via Appia.

And there's the irony. Many times in this war, in this battle, because the aim is to get past

Montecisino and 70 miles to Rome. And the decision is made by Roosevelt and Churchill, Stalin not so much, that the capture of Rome

will dishearten the Germans.

This is before the Normandy landing.

And Mark Clark is the overall commander for the U.S.

Alexander is the overall commander for the U.S.

and the combined forces of the 8th and 5th Army,

and they're under the impression they can be in Rome by Christmas.

Well, they can't be.

The battle goes very badly.

...