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This is the Friends of History Debating Society. I am Gaius John Bachelor and Michael Vlaius Germanicus joins.

Germanicus, who lost Ukraine? Where do we begin? Was it 1991 with the fiction that the Soviet Union was

no more? Is that when we lost it, presuming that that was the end of something as opposed to a phase?

Who lost Ukraine? Was it the treaties that put Ukraine into the position right now of being passed back and forth

between Russia, the Soviets, and Ukraine itself? That sovereignty question in the early 50s,

Khrushchev? Or was it always going to be? sovereignty question in the early 50s? Cruz Jeff?

Or was it always going to be a battle about Keith and Moscow?

Have they always been at odds with each other?

And the presumption in the end of the 20th, the early 21st

that Ukraine was independent of Moscow that presumption proved false it was not well

informed. Who lost Ukraine? I think it was the

arrogance and narcissism of the been expected a victory that seemed out of reach through much of the period of the Cold War,

the U.S. never thought that the Soviet Union would be defeated and then come apart. So there was a suspension of disbelief.

There was a sense that we could do anything in the world. and frankly that that arrogance and narcissism lasted a good

a good 30 years and it was the same kind of assumption of invincibility and of the US as the

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