Welcome to the New York Times Popcast, your Nash Becca of Music News and

lyrical analysis. I'm your host Ben Ryliff.

At least that's what people say.

That's what people say.

Mm-mm.

With us is John Caramonica, who has written about the new Taylor Swift record 1989.

No, it's Becky. Yeah, it's John.

Yeah, Tay-Tay.

Your piece talks a lot about how Taylor Swift has undergone a significant change

in this record.

And first I want you to talk about what that change is.

It's important to understand when you're talking about Taylor making a pop record.

Taylor's been making versions of pop records for a long time now, but they've been coming from a very specific place.

Taylor is someone who as a teenager was made in country songs, but they were always deemed a little too pop for for mainstream country for the

center of country a little too female a little too young that didn't stop them from

becoming huge hits and turning her into basically the biggest star on the planet

or at least in America. So there was an

inevitability that she would eventually just like leave the country box

behind at some point and you started to see this on Red, which was our last album.

There were two or three songs that felt very specifically pop songs.

You have, I knew you were trouble.

You have 22 to a lesser degree.

...