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Atheists, agnostics, long hair, weirdos, short-haired withers, van der Luoghous. Love the government, the government, love, the government, the government, love. Welcome to the politics guys, short head winners, Van Role, Lurga. Welcome to the politics guides, a place for bipartisan rational and civil debate on American politics and policy.

I'm Trey Orndorf, a political scientist at Oklahoma Christian University.

And I'm joined today by Lawrence Jacobs, the founder and director of the Center for

the Study of Politics and Governance, and holds the Walter F. and Joan Mondale Chair for Political

Studies at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey School of Public Affairs. Today, Larry is joining

me to discuss his most recent work, Democracy Under Fire, Donald Trump, and the Breaking of American History, which is available now from Oxford University Press.

Welcome to the politics, guys, Larry, and thank you so much for joining me and for the book.

It's great to be with you. I'm a big fan of what you do, and this is exactly

the kind of serious conversation that we need. So thank you. Well, I appreciate it.

You know, one of the things that I love about this job is the chance to take a look at upcoming

new work, especially from fellow political scientists. And normally the first question that I ask

everyone is to kind of summarize the book.

But before I get that, I've actually got a different question for you first.

Because when I unwrapped your book, the very first thing I noticed, which is different

generally from any other academic tone, which was your cover art.

...