I'm John Batchtner, visiting with the author Richard Munson.

His book is Ingenius, a biography of Benjamin Franklin, scientist.

Emphasis in Richard's book on the experimental Franklin.

But there was the political Franklin we know well from Revolutionary Times.

He was older than our founders. He was a

founder, founder. All of the names we know so well look up to Franklin as this antique

wandering around and somewhat stout man in his seniority.

70 would have been old in the 18th century.

80 would have been unbelievable, something comparable to 150 today.

And we'll get there.

But I go to one particular moment when it was clear to me that Franklin wanted to find a way to keep the colonies

in train with the empire, the king. He didn't want to be defiant. And the parliament put him in a place

called the cockpit, which is really the

hearing hall in Whitehall. And the prosecutor for the parliament lambasted him. That's an inadequate

word without Franklin being able to answer for himself and defamed him in front of parliament or those who attended.

I've always felt, Richard, and you came across this moment in your book, that was when they lost him.

And if that scene hadn't happened or if there'd been the opposite of, can we find a way to work together,

Franklin would have

stayed loyal and maybe he would have influenced the Continental Congresses. What do you make of it?

I think you're exactly right. The English, particularly the parliament, lost their best possible

advocate, their best mediator who still loved the king and was hopeful that the king would have the colonies be part of a grand British empire.

The reason that he got in the cockpit is that he released some letters from the English appointed governor of Massachusetts.

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