This is The Reason Interview with Nick Gillespie. My guest today is Columbia linguist and New York Times columnist John McWhorter.

In 2021, he published woke racism, how a new religion has betrayed Black America, which argued that politically correct anti-racism was not only a new religion, but a dangerous form of illiberalism that quashed free

expression, individual liberty, and social progress. We talk about how far we've come since

2021 and whether we're entering a new era of open debate and cultural possibilities. We also

discussed the apparent end of DEI programs and John's own

experience with affirmative action over his decades in academia and the public square. And he talks

about his forthcoming book, Pronoun Trouble, The Story of Us in Seven Little Words, which comes out in April.

This conversation was taped in front of a live audience in New York City.

Here is The Reason Interview with John McWhorter.

I thought we would start, John.

In 2021, you published Woke Racism. The subtitle was

how a new religion has betrayed Black America. You argued that politically correct anti-racism

was actually an illiberal religion that quashed free expression and social progress. Okay, we live in a world now. You fast word.

You want, okay? People agree with you. Wokeness is over, you know, figures such as Ibram X.

Kendi, who's one of your kind of white whales, if I can mix metaphors in a bad way.

Robin DiAngelo, they're openly ridiculed now in a way that when you wrote woke racism,

they were in high esteem.

Alexandria Ocaso-Cortez has removed her pronouns from her Twitter bio.

You know, governments, universities, corporations are disowning DEI.

So I guess my first question is, is wokeness really dead?

No.

Wokeness is not dead.

...