Jill Lepore on the Insurrection

TALKING POLITICS

Catherine Carr

News, News & Politics

4.7 • 2.5K Ratings

🗓️ 11 January 2021

⏱️ 28 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

David talks to historian Jill Lepore about what took place at the Capitol on January 6th. What should we call it? What can we compare it to? And what should happen next? Plus we ask how Biden ought to address what happened in his inaugural next week. Are we past the time for talk about reconciliation?

Talking Points:

Is there a word for what happened in the US on 6 Jan?

Many Republicans are still defending the insurrection. The likes of Limbaugh and Gingrich are calling it a ‘march.’
The American Right always wants to resurrect the American Revolution and the Left wants to resurrect the Civil War.
To call it an ‘insurrection’ is to evoke the language used to bar former Confederates from holding federal office.

A problem with Trump’s entire presidency has been that reporters and commentators have sought precedents in American history, but Jill thinks nothing in American history has been like this.

Should we be looking to other countries, other failed democracies, for lessons?
How do we balance the uniqueness of Trumpism with the familiarity of the things it draws upon?

Unlike right-movements in countries like Hungary and Turkey, the Trump project did not successfully co-opt the institutions of the state.

American democracy is older than some of these other examples.
The Conservative movement over the last few decades has managed to capture many institutions, namely the courts—although this is not necessarily Trumpism.

When Trump is out of office will it be easier for him to become a ‘martyr?’

Conviction in an impeachment proceeding could be good for mainstream Republicans. It may also make a split in the party more likely.

Mentioned in this Episode:

And as ever, recommended reading curated by our friends at the LRB can be found here: lrb.co.uk/talking

Transcript

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0:00.0	Hello, my name is David Ronserman and this is Talking Politics. This extra episode is a conversation with Jill LaPore, historian and New York writer about the events of January the 6th.
0:16.0	What do we call them? What actually happened? And what comes next?
0:22.0	Talking Politics is brought to you in partnership with the London reviewer books. If you enjoy listening to Talking Politics, you'll definitely enjoy reading the LRB.
0:32.0	That's why they publish a reading list of relevant writing from the archive to a company every episode on lrb.co.uk
0:40.0	And also why you, Talking Politics listeners, are invited to subscribe for just one pound of issue. For the URL, lrb.me-talk.
0:52.0	That's lrb.me-talk. Talking Politics in partnership with the London reviewer books.
1:12.0	Jill, you wrote a piece in the New Yorker a couple of days after what happened on Wednesday and I say what happened because your piece was partly about what do we call it?
1:20.0	And I think everyone who watched it in real time or like me suddenly got a text telling them something was going on and sort of missed it.
1:28.0	Recognized lots of features of what happened and tried to find the words for it. And it's like a lot of things. It's a bit like it was a bit like a kind of coup or a parody of a coup.
1:38.0	An insurrection, a riot, treason. And yet as you say, none of the words seem right. Do you have any more sense a few days on? Is there a word for it?
1:46.0	I got some wonderful email from readers with their suggestions, which was just kind of fascinating. Also to see everyone struggling with that.
1:54.0	One was from someone who suggested it should be called epiphany. January 6th is epiphany the holiday.
2:02.0	And I think that was a wishful label right that somehow it would be like in the movie The Truman Show when finally Truman realizes that he's stuck in an artificial city that he can't escape.
2:16.0	And he's being recorded on television. That somehow this there would be a great revelation for people who bought all the lies that Trump and the conservative media have been spouting for a very long time.
2:29.0	I loved that idea. I thought there's something beautiful about that notion. But I think the further we get from the 6th of January, the less it looks to have been an epiphany.
2:39.0	I think there's a lot of retrenchment. I spent the morning today listening to Rush Limbaugh's broadcast the day after on January 7th and a Newt Gingrich has a podcast.
2:50.0	And I listened to Newt Gingrich's January 10th podcast that in addition to following the relative silence of Republican members of Congress, there's still a lot of defense of the insurrection.
3:02.0	Is that what they're calling it? Are they calling it an insurrection? Gingrich and Limbaugh?
3:07.0	No, they're calling it the stop the steel march.
3:11.0	So it's still a march for them.
3:13.0	And I think Limbaugh said, you know, Limbaugh's press has discussed with conservative figures who have denounced the violence and said, thank God that Sam Adams and the original Tea Partyers weren't cout by people claiming that they were being violent.
3:33.0	So kind of just trying to resurrect the language of the Tea Party to embrace this as a political revolution that is necessary.
	...

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