This is CBSI on the world. I'm John Bachelor with Malcolm Holine. We welcome Devorah Margelen,

the Blumenstein Rosenblum Senior Fellow of Washington Institute, and an adjunct professor of Georgetown University

to help us understand the governance of jihadists. I know it seems like a far-fetched idea, but recently I ran into

the Taliban, presenting themselves as obedient to Mullah Hibatula, Sheikibatula, in Kabul, giving out

orders, suppressing people, executing people, banning women from talking in public.

At the same time, there's a man named Siraj Hakani, Sarajuddin Hakani, the son of the founder

of the Hakani Network of Coast Province. And Hakani is now on a charm offensive to present himself

to the UN, the EU, the OSCE, China, and Russia as a liaison to the Taliban government and someone who can soften, who can speak out for women or those who are condemned.

And, DeVora, I give as much as I understand. How does this work for governance?

It looks like they're doing good cop, bad cop.

Is that purposeful? Good evening to you.

Good evening. Thank you so much for having me.

Yes, I think that is exactly what we're seeing.

When we look at jihadist governance, it's really important to remember first a few things.

There is, first of all, no uniform type of jihadist governance. So what we would see the Taliban

doing isn't necessarily what we're going to see a group like the Islamic State or Hamas doing.

But what we do know is that all seek to really control populations and every aspect of society,

to regulate social relationships,

to apply their ideology, extract resources from local communities, and then take those resources

for their own gain. And for a group like the Taliban, what we're seeing in this case is

kind of the duality of how groups play both internal and

external audiences. So the Taliban is seeking both legitimacy internally in Afghanistan, as well as

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