James White vs. David Allen on the Atonement
Soteriology 101 w/ Dr. Leighton Flowers
Leighton Flowers
4.8 • 826 Ratings
🗓️ 31 January 2015
⏱️ 20 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
It is a gross misrepresentation of the Augustinian doctrine to say that it teaches that Christ suffered so much for so many; that He would have suffered more had more been included in the purpose of salvation. This is not the doctrine of any Church on earth, and never has been. What was sufficient for one was sufficient for all.
We affirm with Dort that no man perishes for want of atonement… –Charles Hodge
We reject the argument, If Christ made penal satisfaction for the sins of all, justice would forbid any to be punished…is incompatible with the facts that God chastises justified believers, and holds elect unbelievers subject to wrath till they believe. Christ's satisfaction is not a pecuniary equivalent, but only such a one as enables the Father, consistently with His attributes, to pardon, if in His mercy He sees fit. –Dabney
"It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the Universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is, Because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner. -Shedd
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Dr. James White has challenged Dr. David Allen to a debate over the doctrine of atonement. |
| 0:05.3 | Yet I don't think James White represents an orthodox view of the reform tradition with regard to the |
| 0:11.9 | atonement. I'll explain why. Let's dive in. |
| 0:14.1 | You answer all my questions. You can never tell no lies. You're always telling me what it's all about, but some don't listen to your |
| 0:22.1 | replies. You say to us we can't do enough, and when I try, I'm a fool. This time I'm spent |
| 0:29.1 | and I've realized that I can't make it through. I need you. The words you say, your gracious |
| 0:35.5 | love just gives you away The words you say |
| 0:39.1 | You're so believable |
| 0:42.0 | Welcome to the Sotiology 101 podcast |
| 0:47.7 | With Professor Leighton Flowers |
| 0:50.1 | Join our online university classroom |
| 0:53.1 | As we discuss the doctrines of grace and God's amazing plan for salvation. |
| 0:59.0 | You're so believable. |
| 1:02.0 | The idea that the non-elect, including, and I would like to be able to ask this question, |
| 1:07.1 | because in the definition that was given, Dr. Allen did not differentiate between the people who were alive in Jesus' day and thereafter, in the people before. |
| 1:17.6 | So did Jesus die? |
| 1:19.6 | He's my favorite example, but it makes it contrast clear. |
| 1:23.6 | Did Jesus die for the Amarite high priest, who had been dead for centuries before the |
| 1:29.8 | atoning work of Christ? Why? Why would the father cause the son to suffer for the sins of an |
| 1:36.9 | individual who can no longer repent and believe? It almost opens up the door for post-mortem |
| 1:42.5 | evangelization, if you want to go that direction. |
| 1:45.7 | But I can guarantee you. Dr. Allen does not believe in post-mortem evangelization. |
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