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Sounds True.com, speak with Jim Finley. Jim is a clinical

psychologist in Santa Monica, California and a Merton scholar. Jim left home at the

age of 18 and actually lived as a monk at the Abbey of

Gesthemine with Thomas Merton for six years. He's the author of Christian

meditation, experiencing the presence of God and the contemplative

heart, as well as several sounds true audio learning programs, including a program on Christian meditation and a program with

Carolyn Mace on transforming trauma, a seven-step process for spiritual healing.

I spoke with Jim about the experience of the dark

night of the soul which is a topic that he leads retreats on. We also spoke about his spiritual approach to healing trauma.

Jim, there's a topic that I've heard you teach on that I've never heard you speak on that I'd love to talk with you about, which is the Dark Knight of the Soul, and how somebody knows

when they're going through a Dark Knight, some kind of initiation, and the difference between that and when they're just

feeling down and depressed. How do you know the difference? Yes. Is there a

difference? Yeah, there is a difference. I want to do this. First of all, the term, the Dark Night of the Soul, most often refers back to the term that was, the term was used by St John of the Cross, the 16th century

Spanish mystic St John of the Cross. And for St John of the Cross the Dark Night of the Soul

is kind of the cross, dark night of the soul is kind of the central operating kind of

process through which a person comes to mystical awakening. So I'd like to

...