Will AI improve our lives or exterminate the species?

What would it take to abolish poverty?

Are you eating enough fermented foods?

These are some of the questions we've tackled recently on the next big idea.

I'm Rufus Griscombe, and every week I sit down with the world's leading thinkers

for in-depth conversations that will help you live, work, and play smarter.

Follow the next big idea wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to the big technology podcast.

This is Alex Cantroitz.

Our guest today, and I'm really excited about this one, is Tim Bray.

He's the former Amazon VP and distinguished engineer who quit his job after the company

fired his colleagues who spoke out against his practices earlier this year. So just to catch you up,

first they spoke out on climate, saying the company did more harm than good, and then on working

conditions, saying Amazon was putting its warehouse workers in harm's way. Amazon didn't like getting

pressed like that from the inside, and that was pretty much that. Those whistleblowers are no longer

with the company, and now neither is Bray. Okay, a bit of context here. Amazon is not unique among

tech companies and seeing its workers stand out and speak up against its practices, and certainly

not among the tech giants, right? Google and Facebook have been the subject of similar

backlashes inside their companies. But Amazon came down harder on its whistleblowers and provoked

an equal and opposite reaction from Bray. So Bray's decision to quit, standing up for whistleblowers

who essentially told the company to stop polluting and listen to employees who tell you they feel unsafe during a pandemic is completely unprecedented for someone at his level.

And that's why I'm thrilled to speak with him about his decision and what it might say about the future of how change might be pushed inside the tech giants while Congress and

regulators stand still. So I'm delighted to bring Tim onto the show. Welcome, Tim. Well, I'm delighted

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