Hello and welcome to this week's edition of Unbelievably the show that brings you conversations that matter every Saturday here on Premiere Christian radio and all over the world via our podcast continuing to look at the end times today as we decipher the book of revelation I'll be introducing my guests shortly and you can get more from the show at premier Christian radio.com forward slash unbelievable including of course more links to the podcast newsletter videos and ways to support the show as well.

We said goodbye recently to my co-presenter Ruth Jackson bad a month ago off on maternity leave I am so glad to be able to report that she and will her husband are now parents to a wonderful baby girl Ian Grace what a gorgeous name and a gorgeous little girl she is to so congratulations to Ruth and will their first child an amazing time in your life really so glad that Eden Grace is safely with us.

And of course this weekend is a big one to for the whole of England the first time in many of our lifetimes we've seen England's football team in an international final I don't care if it's to be a big football fan but I do follow the big international stuff and could it finally be coming home will find out this Sunday hope you enjoy today show.

You're listening to unbelievable with Justin Briarley.

Well today on the show we're asking how do I make sense of revelation or as an alternative title is revelation completely bonkers because the book of revelation it is one of the most mysterious and frankly sometimes bizarre books of the Bible with all that talk of beast and dragons and plays and scrolls and trumpets and bowls of Roth and horsemen and symbolic numbers.

Perhaps most famously the mark of the beast 666 well for Christians of course revelation has been a sort of an illispectulation as well about the end times what events might accompany the return of Christen in in last week's show I was joined by a pre millennial and a millennial perspective on the end time so today I'm joined by two guests perhaps with completely different views on that sort of thing but we're taking really a wider look at the book of revelation in all of its strangeness and break day.

Davis has written a book on exactly that he's a pastor out in Colorado he's the author of see the strange the gospel according to revelation in which he seeks to help readers understand the genre and the context that revelation was written into so that we can see the meaning for today and what underlies the symbolism and all that strangeness as well.

Also joined on the show today by Glenn Pachyum who's also a pastor and theologian especially in the area of worship and sacraments his recent books include Blessed Broken Given and Worship and the World to Come exploring Christian hope in contemporary worship which is very suitable for today's theme and with both of their help we're hoping to make some sense of revelation today so so Brett and Glenn work on along to the show great to have you both join me today.

What I have mentioned is you both are actually pastors at the same church so it's new life church in Colorado so tell us a bit about that Brett how long you've been there what's your your role at the church yourself.

Yeah thank you for having us on yeah I've been around new life for about three and a half years at this point and my role my current role there is an associate pastor with our Friday night congregation new life's actually a church of eight different congregations in five different locations.

Speaking three different languages and so and it's we've gone a little different way then a lot of churches in that all of our congregations are locally led and so there's life preaching and teaching at all of our congregations every single weekend it's really a team based model.

It's an incredible congregation or church and congregation to be a part of and so my role there looks like doing basic sorts of pastors pastor things you know being with people joining with them coffees lunches in addition to writing and researching and doing some preaching too.

Cool cool Glenn you're also I guess a different part of of new life church out there tell us about what you've been doing how long have you been there.

So I've been on staff for 21 years and I guess when you stay around that long they start to make up titles for you so I am what they call in us I am associate senior pastor at the church which means I do lead one of the congregations but I also help look after or oversee our offsite congregation so those familiar with an Anglican ecclesiology might think of path.

And that sort of stuff so I kind of help if our senior pastor functions like the bishop I help him by coaching and checking in on the other congregations and I do preach and teach and lead at our downtown congregation as well and Brett's book see the strange was a wonderful resource for us we all do the same sermon series together and we all study together and we did a series on revelation during the 2020 fall of 2020 and Brett's book became a key commentary text for us.

Great great. Tell us about the book Brett's what inspired you to write on possibly the most difficult book to write on in the whole of the Bible.

So before I came to new life I was pastoring a small very small church up in northwest Denver and I actually walked our congregation through near near the end of my time there I walked our congregation through I think it was 16 weeks of walking through the church.

I think I was walking through the book of Revelation I tend to gravitate to the most difficult parts of scripture mainly because my my reasoning is this there's a lot of parts of scripture that do seem completely bonkers and so I really I guess I want to know if it is and it turns out that like the more I dig into it the more I discover that man this is some of the most compelling beautiful rich stuff in all of the Christian canon.

And so yeah I walked our congregation through it I I did I prepared these sermons as as manuscripts and then I did something unusual I printed out the manuscripts for the congregation because I researched and foot noted a lot of the stuff and there was this family that came in town and dropped it or congregation they were in a distant part of about three and a half hours away.

But they kept emailing me asking me for more of the manuscripts because they realized that I had done it and so as as the the sermon series wound down and I stepped away from that congregation I thought man this was so helpful to a lot of people or not a lot of people but to this family I wonder if it could be helpful to a lot of people and so I ended up compiling it and formatting it and editing it and illustrating it.

And I'm trying to trying to make it as hospitable as possible because it is one of the most as you said it's one of the most inhospitable parts of the Bible but just overwhelms and intimidates people and I thought how can we make a resource that that will invite people into this.

Yeah I've got it here I don't know if this is the final cover but this this is it's got some great endorsements including Glenn when you got you got it there as well Brett including Richard Borkham who's obviously an amazing scholar and probably has written one of the best academic books out there on on Revelation.

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