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landmark.edu. From KQED. Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms and often laws in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back

against federal power. But what should the states do and how? It's not just resisting. Blue

states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally

would have been federal responsibilities. In a new essay in Mother Jones, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play

to throw the state's economic might around.

It's a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a, quote, soft secession.

To talk about what that could mean, we're joined by Claire Jeffrey, editor-in-chief of

Mother Jones and the Center for Investigative Reporting.

Welcome, Clara.

Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.

And we're also joined by John Michaels, Professor of Law at UCLA School of Law and Advisor

to the Dean on Civic Engagement.

Welcome, John.

Thanks for having me.

So let's just go straight to the name.

Soft Secession. How do you define that?

Well, it's defined sort of as not a violent break of like 1861, but another term for it is

...