Hey, welcome to Grant's Interest Rate Observer of the Air. I'm Jim Grant, and with me today,

as always, is our deputy editor, the fabulous Evan Lorenz, Phil Grant, who edits must be read,

almost daily grants, which comes out on an almost daily basis, and of course, Eric White

edited the controls.

Now, gentlemen, today we have some business. We're going to talk at length to Victor Shee,

who is a professor who professes, among other things, that China is a big, fat, ugly Ponzi scheme.

I'm paraphrasing our president during the campaign. Before that, before we get down to China,

Ponziism and the like, I have a thing to say about Steinhof. Steinhof, as you all know by now, is a South Africa-based household products

company that has got itself at a pickle. Its CEO has just quit their financial irregularities,

supposedly, as being investigated. Is Steinhoff by the investigatory body of the South

African government as well, apparently, as by European authorities.

The thing is about Steinhoff is that it's got an issue of bonds outstanding, and a part of that issue is in the possession of none other than Mario Draghi himself.

Now, I think he's doing business with the European Central Bank, but it's Mary O'Draki, who has instituted this bond program.

It's, it's, I mean, Shakespeare, saying it's gross as a mountain, open, palpable.

He was talking about lies, Shakespeare, but I'm saying this with respect to this bond buying program.

Gross as amount.

Evan, how much corporate debt has the European Central Bank bought?

129 billion.

I think that's right. Yeah, right.

I ask the question, I answer the question.

I can't wait for it because I'm so mad about this.

All right, so the ECB owning a bit of this security, and these are the, for keeping a score at home,

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