So joining me now is somebody for many of us of a certain age in Washington is that I would deem an institution.

It's Paul Gloucesteris, the editor-in-chief of the Washington Monthly.

Many of us count the Washington Monthly as one of the first magazines that published us.

That would be me.

So when I started seeing, could I do this?

Could I write long form after all of my sort of wire copy years at the National Journal and doing the hotline?

And Paul was an extraordinarily generous editor and a great mentor to a lot of writers and reporters around

Washington. So this is a real treat for me. Paul, it's good to see you. Chuck, what a pleasure.

Thanks for having me on. And I remember that story well. It was by John Kerry, I think.

Yes, yes, it was. And so I have you on because you did something that I love, and it's something, frankly,

that I remember the Obama administration wanted to make a bigger deal out of, which was,

how can we create a list of best colleges for bang for your buck, essentially?

You know, what's going to provide you the education that you need without making you have to go into debt for the rest of your life or to do blood

oaths to people that maybe you don't want to give blood oaths to because you want to get

into this Ivy League university, that Ivy League

University. I will note the irony that you once worked at U.S. News and now you have a competing

list. But this is, and look, I want to talk about the future of journalism and sort of, and where

that goes, too. But talk to me about the decision to do this list and for the

Washington Monthly. And how would you describe it? And what what motivated you to do it?

Well, you're right that that I used to work at US News and the US News college rankings paid my mortgage.

All of us, right?

There was always a kind of undercurrent of concern about the adequacy of the numbers.

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