The Closer Podcast brings you the inside story of deals changing the world, told by the people who know how it all went down.

Understand the human motivations behind groundbreaking business decisions with host Amy Keene.

Listen to The Closer, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the HBR IDEA cast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Sarah Green Carmichael. Today I'm

talking with Adam Grant, Wharton professor and author of the new book

originals, how non-conformists move the world. Adam thank you so much for talking with us today.

Thanks for having me, Sarah.

So there's a number of interesting ways in the book

that you talk about the science of people who are non-conformists.

And before we get into that I want to talk a little bit about the people

who are more likely to be conformists. I think we have a sort of negative connotation sometimes

when we talk about people who conform but is that

fair is that unfair does everyone sort of play a part you know before we get into

the non-conformist tell us a little bit about people who conform yeah Yeah I think conformity is dangerous because it

means following other people not because you believe in their ideas or agree with

them but because you want to fit in instead of standing up and look look, every pioneer needs settlers,

every leader needs followers, but I want people

when they choose to march in line with someone else

to do it because they actually feel that the idea makes sense not because they're

afraid of rocking the boat. Yes I think that's a great point. Interestingly too I

noticed in one section in the book you talk about how people in the middle of their career or

sort of organization level that those people middle management is more likely to

be conformist if I'm saying this right because the pressures to conform there are stronger than when you're

...