Because Ukraine, I wouldn't even say that Ukraine is truly independent or that Ukraine has ever been truly independent.

Of course, in 1991, when Ukraine gained independence on the paper, we can say that, yes, Ukraine is independent.

But at the same time, Ukraine was very dependent on Russia.

And there are many reasons for that, of course.

Now Ukraine is more dependent on the West, because if you claim Ukraine is independent,

and you cut all the support, financial, military and everything, the government will collapse.

So can we really say that Ukraine is independent?

I wouldn't say so, but it makes it very convenient to use Ukraine to install a government

that will fulfill whatever the best wants that government to do.

With regard to Russia, I wouldn't say that Ukraine is truly independent or ever was.

So that's my two cents right now.

Thank you.

Thank you, Julie.

Yeah, it's interesting on the question of NATO membership.

Rizinski, he sort of defaulted to that position.

Well, ultimately, he's been asked directly this.

He said, well, ultimately it's up to Ukrainians to decide.

And so really kicking the can down the road on that.

But he was really a big believer, especially late in his career,

really pushing Ukrainian nationalism,

but a united form of Ukrainian nationalism.

And I think this was a little bit idealistic on his part.

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