Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne. So I have already started crying before we even started today's episode because I have Jen and John with me today.

And if you have not heard the first part of Jen's story,

please go back and listen to last week

where she talks about the abuse that she endured

during her marriage and the divorce, and also the fact that she endured during her marriage and the divorce and also the fact that she's now

dating her ex-husband who is on the podcast with us today.

So welcome John.

Hello, thanks for having me.

Like I said last week, I know John and I know his family and I've known him longer than I've known Jen and so this is really emotional for me to see what looks like could be a hopeful story. And John, so you know, I told everyone that I do not want to

listen to this listen to this podcast in that way.

I would like them to listen to someone who is working through recovery,

hoping to reunite his family but there's things

you don't know that you don't know yet right things that we all don't know at

this point absolutely it's a process and I'm trying my best but there's definitely stumbles and it's certainly not the end of the road for sure.

Right. Let's talk about when you were married.

Did you realize that your behaviors were abusive to Jen?

I had a hard time while we were married putting the term abuse on it. I rationalized everything I was doing to her. I knew that what I was doing wasn't right, but I would never allow myself to admit fully what was actually happening.

Everything I did was on purpose, but I kept downplaying it to myself and it allowed me to continue doing what I was doing.

When you say everything you did was on purpose, do you mean that it was like a calculated action?

Yeah, well, I don't know about calculated, but it wasn't like I was inadvertently doing things. I wanted to get something and so I would do these things.

For instance, one of the things I used to do was we have five kids together.

We'd be at family gatherings or we'd be at people's houses and when it was getting close to time to go,

...