Hello and welcome to another episode of IWay with Jamila Jamil. I'm so fucking excited for you to hear this episode. I love my guest so much. I loved this conversation so much. It's one of my favorite chats I've ever had on this podcast. My guest is Jordan Stevens who is a musician. He's one half of Rizzlekicks. He's also a wonderful actor. He's very funny. He's a wonderful public speaker about so many different social issues and he's now an author of an excellent book called Avoidance, Drugs, Heartbreak and Dogs which is a memoir of his kind of journey to self-love to the love of others and to

vulnerability like real vulnerability and in this episode we talk about the book and

how it's not only important for men in order to make them

feel seen and heard and you know hopefully to encourage them to also open their

hearts and embrace their sensitivities but it's also a wonderful piece of work I think for women to be able to read especially women in

heter normative relationships you know there's such a mystery between men and women about

each other that doesn't need to exist because there is great text out there in which we can

hear each other's most intimate thoughts and workings out and Jordan has done that very vulnerable,

very generous work in this book by really giving us such a profound insight into

his fears his shames his guilt his joys all of the different things that make up the wonderful

human that he is and in this episode we also talk a lot about men, about what's going on with men, about what's going on with little boys, about what's going on with this epidemic of violence that we're seeing against women and men from men.

We try to just kind of theorize together about ways in which the world could be better,

ways in which men and women could come together alternative ways of dealing

with this growing divide between us that is not getting us anywhere.

And so in this episode we are very vulnerable, we're working things out on the spot and it's you know in

moments we even kind of debate but with such faith in each other and with such love empathy

openness trust and no defense and if only more conversations

about this hugely scary and nuanced topic could be had with such love and empathy. I think the world would genuinely

be a better place because we're all coming at everything from completely different life experiences

and so I urge you to be patient with him and I as we work things out

together and we have our minds changed in real time on this podcast and just

know that what you have here is an insight into a real conversation, not a performative

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