How to Think Like a World-Class Marketer | Rory Sutherland

The Knowledge Project

Shane Parrish

Business, Society & Culture, Technology, Education, Self-improvement, Investing, Entrepreneurship

4.7 • 2.9K Ratings

🗓️ 9 December 2025

⏱️ 121 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland reveals the formula for persuasion, why people make decisions and how you can use psychology to your advantage. Rory is the world’s leading advertising strategist. He spent almost four decades as Ogilvy studying why people behave the way they do and how to change that behavior. He explains why contrast drives choices and efficiency often destroys value, and how trust, friction, and design shape real-world behavior. +Rory was previously on the show, check out episode 19. ----- Approximate Chapters: (00:00) Introduction (01:31) AI and Decision Making (03:48) Are We Looking for Efficiency in the Wrong Place? (15:52) Ad Break (18:09) Ice Cold Beer Thought Experiment (19:56) Trust and Manipulation (27:15) Dyson Customer Experience and 'Brand Quake' (29:21) Customer Value Thinking (34:28) Why Is Dyson So Effective at Marketing? (36:28) Ad Break (38:51) Map/Territory Problem in Business (39:27) The Problem with Shareholders (42:29) The Problem with 'Tech Bro' Decision Making (45:14) Warren Buffett’s Approach to Choosing Management (47:52) John Bragg’s Approach to Buying Infrastructure (51:23) High Trust vs Low Trust Societies (58:45) What Can We Learn from the Mad Men Era of Marketing (1:03:59) The Danger of Bad Marketing (1:17:47) Navigating Cancel Culture with Common Sense (1:29:59) Signalling to Ourselves When We Purchase Something (1:39:06) Changing of Societal Norms (1:43:27) How to Write Good Copy (1:56:30) What Is Success for You? ----- Upgrade: Get a hand edited transcripts and ad free experiences along with my thoughts and reflections at the end of every conversation. Learn more @ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠fs.blog/membership⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠------Newsletter: The Brain Food newsletter delivers actionable insights and thoughtful ideas every Sunday. It takes 5 minutes to read, and it’s completely free. Learn more and sign up at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠fs.blog/newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠------ Follow Shane Parrish:X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/shaneparrish Insta: https://www.instagram.com/farnamstreet/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shane-parrish-050a2183/ ------ Thank you to the sponsors for this episode: Basecamp: Stop struggling, start making progress. Get somewhere with Basecamp. Sign up free at http://basecamp.com/knowledgeproject reMarkable: Get your paper tablet at https://www.reMarkable.com today .tech domains: Nothing says tech like being on .tech https://get.tech/ Shopify: https://shopify.com/knowledgeproject Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	I keep hearing people saying, you will say to your AI, find me a skiing holiday,
0:05.4	and it will provide you with a perfect skiing holiday.
0:08.2	And I keep saying, people don't decide like that.
0:11.1	When you allow tech bros too much power over decision making,
0:14.7	along with their running dog lackeys in kind of management consultancy,
0:18.9	you're optimizing for something which may be very, very distant
0:22.0	from what your real-world customers really care about.
0:24.9	What makes Tyson so effective at advertising?
0:27.4	Actually, it's not advertising, it's marketing, and it's customer experience.
0:31.0	What's the difference between marketing and advertising?
0:32.9	Advertising is a subordinate part of marketing, and do you think we're looking for efficiency in the wrong place?
0:39.0	We usually do.
0:40.4	And so you focus too heavily on cost reduction
0:43.0	and too little on value creation.
0:45.0	What are the rules of good copy
0:46.4	if I asked you to teach me how to write good copy?
0:49.4	How would you do that?
0:50.4	I think a large part of it comes down to...
0:53.3	... that. I think a large part of it comes down to... So we first, we were talking about this in the elevator.
1:01.9	It was nine years ago.
1:03.1	Geesh.
1:03.5	Back when podcasting wasn't even a thing.
	...

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