Hey, it's Elise Hugh. You're listening to TED Talks Daily. David Kessler is an expert on grief. He worked and co-authored several books with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, who famously coined the five stages of grief. Kessler added a sixth crucial stage, finding meaning. So he's the perfect person to discuss this topic as part of

our series, how to deal with difficult feelings. Today he's in conversation with TED curator

Chloe Shoshawbrooks. So now I will be speaking with David Kessler, an author who has written

six books on grief and loss. Two of those books were

co-authored with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, a Swiss-American psychiatrist who was a pioneer in near-death

studies. And his most recent book published last year is called Finding Meaning, The Sixth Stage of

grief. Let's dive right in. So many people are struggling with grief right now, and the five stages of

brief, you know, are kind of typically known to be denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

But can you tell us about the sixth stage of grief? Absolutely. And I always like to point out,

I was honored to work with Kubla Ross on her stages. They're not linear.

They're not a map for grief. There's no one right way to do grief. And I think as people experience

them, and also, as you know, and some people may know, I'm not only a grief specialist, but I'm a

bereaved parent. I had a younger son David die a few years ago.

Once I and so many people experience acceptance, we want more. Acceptance isn't enough for our

generation. I think we want meaning, and I believe meaning is the sixth stage. And when we talk about meaning,

I always like to point out, there's no meaning in a horrible death or in a pandemic or in a

wedding being canceled or a job being lost. The meaning isn't in the horrible event. The meaning is

in us. It's what we find afterwards. I mean, I just think

that's such a helpful perspective for people to hold on to. And I also really appreciate, you know,

you've written about these seven different factors that guide the concept of meaning when it

comes to grief. Can you tell us about those seven factors?

They are. First, meaning is relative and personal. Two, meaning takes time. You may not find it until months or even years after loss. Because you can't rush the meaning. You can't say

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