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The Kevin Rose Show

Henry Shukman, Associate Master of Sanbo Zen, The Mysterious/Unsolvable Zen Koans (#41)

The Kevin Rose Show

Kevin Rose

Technology, Business, Entrepreneurship

4.92.1K Ratings

🗓️ 4 August 2020

⏱️ 92 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Henry Shukman (Ryu’un-ken) is an Associate Zen Master of the Sanbo Zen lineage, based in Kamakura, Japan, and he teaches at the Mountain Cloud Zen Center in Santa Fe, NM. He has trained primarily with Joan Rieck Roshi, Zen teacher John Gaynor, Ruben Habito Roshi, and now continues his training under the guidance of Yamada Ryoun Roshi, current abbot of Sanbo Zen. Henry is dedicated to what he sees as core Zen training — clarifying our essential nature to our own satisfaction, and thereby finding true peace of mind, and then living that essential nature in every moment of daily life, in freedom, love, and deep responsiveness. Henry is a writer and poet of British-Jewish origin, who has published eight books to date, of fiction, poetry, and nonfiction. He writes regularly for Tricycle, The New York Times, and other publications, and his most recent book is One Blade of Grass: Finding the Old Road of the Heart, a Zen Memoir. SHOW NOTES How we each began the journey toward practicing meditation. [01:30] Henry suffered from extreme eczema for decades. Here's how meditation was instrumental in relieving his condition. [04:38] The pros and cons of Transcendental Meditation (TM) as we understood them, and why we each chose to move on. [09:09] An awakening epiphany Henry experienced around the time he wrote his first book -- before he discovered meditation. [11:00] One problem with epiphanies: they don't come with a user's manual. [17:53] Further musings (and concerns) about TM. [22:22] Henry shares an overview of Zen and how he became involved with it. [25:49] What is a koan? [28:41] Zen vs. psychedelics. [29:48] Can enlightenment be explained by existing language, or does it need to be experienced? [34:25] The "emptiness" of Buddhism, the relief of lightening psychic burdens, and some thoughts on the way our senses process reality. [36:09] Zen is not always about enlightenment, but applying the practice to the practical aspects of our lives. [43:10] What does Henry's Zen practice look like, and how does someone get involved? [45:21] What are the benefits of having a guide when you're learning to meditate? Does Henry consider it necessary for everybody? [47:42] A koan awakening. [52:23] The importance of recognizing life's transformational passages as we encounter them, as well as the beauty of valuing the ordinary. [54:50] How does Henry go from appreciating life's mundane moments to coping with 2020's more sensational aspects like politics and COVID-19? [58:50] Feeling powerless to engage in the political process? Take a lesson from the bodhisattvas and help work toward good without getting wrapped up in potential outcomes. [1:06:04] A deeper dive into koans and how we can work with them. [1:08:13] A computer science guy's approach to understanding koans. [1:12:52] Henry takes us through a few particularly famous koans. [1:16:07] Are koans ever meant to shock a student into enlightenment? [1:20:59] What can we expect from Henry's latest book, One Blade of Grass: Finding the Old Road of the Heart, a Zen Memoir? [1:24:48] Parting thoughts and ways to get in touch with Henry. [1:27:07]

Transcript

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0:00.0

Hey everybody Kevin Rose here. Welcome back to another episode of the Kevin Rose show.

0:04.0

Really excited that you hit play on this one because it's a really deep dive into Zen. Zen Coans, which are these fascinating little riddles that are used in Zen, these secret little

0:16.4

riddles that are used that can sometimes trigger Enlightenment.

0:20.8

It's kind of a question and answer type riddle that I think you're just going to find

0:26.2

a really curious and fascinating.

0:27.9

It was, it's actually how I first heard about Henry, who's our guest today, Henry Shookman.

0:33.0

I was on Sam Harris's meditation app called Waking Up,

0:36.0

and there was a new course about these in Coans,

0:39.0

a seven or eight part course,

0:41.0

and I dove into it, and they're're really short around 10 minutes in length and I just listened to every single one back to back

0:47.6

Found them really fun little brain teasers, but but they're not they're really difficult to describe so I guess what I'm saying right

0:54.0

now doesn't make a whole lot of sense but stick around for that part of the conversation.

0:58.0

We also go really deep on Enlightenment trying to define it the best we can.

1:03.4

What is enlightenment?

1:04.5

What is this state of mind that certain people achieve?

1:07.4

And I think Henry does a great job at explaining that.

1:09.8

For those of you that don't know Henry,

1:11.2

he is an associate Zen master at the Mountain Cloud Zen Center based in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

1:17.0

He's also the author of a new book, One Blade of Grass, Finding the Old Road to the Heart, which I have started to listen to and I think is just

1:25.2

fantastic.

1:26.2

It's really an honor and pleasure to have him on the show.

1:28.7

This is Henry Schickman.

...

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