BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

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You're about to listen to a BBC podcast.

Absolutely right.

So, you might like to know that the BBC makes loads of other podcasts.

Really?

Wow.

Many of them are very funny.

Which I think means...

A hatful of ha-hars. And energy! Even if we do say so ourselves. I agree 100% to that. Find them all on BBC Sounds. Just tell us a joke. Come on, tell us a joke, tell us a joke, come on tell us a joke. Just search comedy on BBC Sounds. I'm really looking forward to getting stuck in. We have a different kind of programme today,

one about an English king whose reputation has in part been shaped by William Shakespeare,

not Richard the third, as you might expect, but Richard the second, born in 1367,

crowned as a boy king ten years later and deposed in 1399. I feel the man who replaced him,

Henry IV, may also have a part to play in today's discussion, so two lives for the price of one.

But first, to my guest, eminent historian and broadcaster, Helen Castor, author of She-Wolves, Joan of Arc, and most

recently The Eagle and the Heart. Helen, tell us about Richard and why we're discussing him today.

Well, Richard's life was not great in the sense of admirable or successful, but he is a fascinating character and his life was certainly consequential.

He was the second king after the conquest to be deposed.

So he's a deposed king succeeded by a usurper.

Do you like him?

I'm fond of him, which is a different thing.

I don't think I like him. I don't think I would have liked him had I had to spend any time in his company. But I feel for him in the sense that I think he had no understanding whatsoever quite how he found himself in the terrible situation that came to pass in 1399.

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