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Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

“Have We Got Morality Backwards? The Case Against Utilitarianism” with Bo Winegard

Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

Josh Szeps

Society & Culture, Comedy Interviews, Self-improvement, Comedy, Education

4.5905 Ratings

🗓️ 17 November 2025

⏱️ 109 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

What does it mean to do the right thing, and how do we know when we’re doing wrong? Is it ever okay to lie? To exact vengeance? To eat meat? To abort a foetus? To pamper your kids when that money could save a poor child's life overseas? 

All of our most uncomfortable conversations stem, at their heart, from a conflict about what we ought to do. And the basis of our modern morality, in secular Western culture at least, is utilitarianism: the pursuit of the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Its most important living advocate, Peter Singer, has shaped how generations think about ethics, from animal rights to abortion, foreign aid, euthanasia, religion and more. 

But what if your utilitarian assumptions are wrong? "Spectacularly and extravagantly wrong", in the words of today's guest?

Bo Winegard is a social psychologist whose essay, Against Singerism, is an audacious critique of our basic moral framework. Josh and Bo unpack the appeal and limits of utilitarianism, the traps of moral absolutism, and what it means to lead a good life. If "the greatest good" isn't the ultimate moral goal, then... what is?

Transcript

Click on a timestamp to play from that location

0:00.0

Gahey, humans. Welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas. One of the most uncomfortable

0:08.6

conversations that we tend to have when we're adolescents, when we're just forming our view of

0:13.9

the world, but which we often then shunt aside later on in life, is the basic, dangerous idea of what does it really mean to do the right

0:24.2

thing versus doing the wrong thing and how do we figure out the edge cases when is it okay to lie

0:30.1

for example to spare a greater harm is it okay to lavish your children with everything they need at the same time as you know

0:39.4

that some of the money that you spend on them could be saving the lives of needier children

0:43.6

overseas? There are big ethical flare-ups in modern culture like is it okay to kill an itsy-bits

0:51.8

teeny-weeny little pre-baby in a mummy's tummy.

0:55.3

Should she have the right to do so?

0:56.9

This abortion debate has, of course, roiled the United States for decades, whether or not

1:02.3

gay people should be allowed to marry each other.

1:05.5

But often, we just sort of take as a given our underlying ethical assumptions about the rest of our lives.

1:12.7

And most of what we believe in Western secular liberal culture is some form of utilitarianism

1:19.7

or consequentialism whose most significant advocate in this generation and arguably of the 20th century would have to be Peter Singer.

1:29.3

A former guest on this show, in fact, I moderated Peter Singer's live events when he was in

1:35.5

Australia and I hope to have him on the show again soon. He literally coined the term animal liberation

1:42.6

in his book of the same name in the 1970s, and he's had

1:46.0

more of an impact than perhaps any other living moral philosopher on the way that both philosophers

1:51.6

think and therefore the way that we all think about doing right and doing wrong. And his basic

1:57.8

position is a utilitarian one, is that the greatest good for the greatest number

2:02.6

of people should be our moral yardstick rather than some sort of more theological or

2:07.5

absolutist moral position that says that there are things that are intrinsically right or

...

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