The prime goal of government is to protect the minority of the opulent from the majority.

In order to do that, you've got to fragment the majority so they really can't get to do

very much.

And you have to concentrate power in the wealth of a good girl? You can get on a girl finger, all the trigger. What's the use of a good girl? You can get on a girl finger, all trigger. Michael Miles here, let that be your welcome for the next hour. We're sitting here with Freddie Lim, Happy Metal Singer, lead singer of the band, Thonic and member of Taiwanese Parliament and co-founder of the new power party. And we're going to talk about Taiwan, Taiwanese independence. And most of my audience doesn't know anything about Taiwan like most Americans, right? So we're going to ask you some very basic questions because as I was telling you before as my audience knows my background is in North Korea. I read an interview with you and you had a very similar upbringing to some of the people I've met which is this growing up in North Korea they're taught that the Americans started the Korean War and when they learned that Kim Il Sung is the one who started it, it blows their mind. Now, you growing up in Taiwan had a similar upbringing that you were taught from a young age. Things that simply weren't true. Yeah. When I was young, I would be taught that, how to say, we have been taught mostly the history of China and the history of the ideology of the Chinese nationalist, which is called the KMT Party, who ruled Taiwan for decades of years. So we have been taught to look down to Taiwanese culture. And we have been banned to speak in Taiwanese in schools. And we have been taught the different, totally opposite version of the history of Taiwan. So yeah, in my age, I think most of the young people now in Taiwan, they got all kinds of information, free information everywhere. So of course, they don't have to be through the same process, like I have been through. I have to discover the real history, have to look for the information in the library, and more different resources that I can get. So tell me what you were taught growing up and then what is the actual truth? When I was young, when I was young I been taught that we fought against Japanese and we, I mean my people fought against Japanese. So all those, during the World War II, those jets, flights who attacked us are Japanese air forces. But then I realized that that's the totally opposite story because Taiwan was colonial territory on the Japanese rule in 2nd World War II. So our some of our ancestors or our grandparents, our relatives, they were even served as soldiers in Japanese army. They fought against the Chinese army. So that was quite, when we, that was quite, how to say, quite confused when I got those information in schools that actually they taught the opposite side of my grandmama. My grandmama shared her story about how she and her neighbors and relatives hide from the US, the allies attacks, how they survive from that. But the schools told us that we survive from the Japanese attacks. So that's the totally opposite story. So I think in my age, many people like me, we got so much different kind of confusions in schools and back in families. And then you can't really get what your grandparents try to communicate with you. And especially they spoke in Taiwanese and which were the languages that the government banned us to speak in school. So you kind of, you can't find a connection with your families. And then you can't find the right languages to communicate with your families. So that's why I have been survived from. Yeah, it's amazing how pervasive government control and the Chinese government can be because this is something where it's like naturally when you're a kid, any kid, you're going to think, oh my grandparents are uncool, right? And now they're speaking this language that no one talks, they talk old fashioned and silly, you want to don't want to listen to them and it's a natural thing. And then but actually they're the ones telling the truth and it's It's everyone who's around you that's telling you lies. It's very hard for a young person to understand

and it was Lenin who even made this point about

how if you give me the kids, you know,

I'll have them for generations. It's like, yeah, if they get them young by the time they're adults, how it's gonna be very few kids who are gonna be like, like wait a minute, let me question what I've been taught at school.

But like you also said, and this is going on in other countries,

once there's access to social media and outside information,

it's very hard to maintain all these lies and this whole structure of lies, because once you realize they're lying about this, what else are they lying to me about? So what most Americans don't understand is Taiwan has a very weird relationship with China. The official name of Taiwan is the Republic of China, because that's where Shanghai's check and his government fled during the war with Chairman Mao. So what is the exact legal relationship between Taiwan and China? I would say, let me try to explain in, I think, in a most easier, most easiest way, that Taiwan now is actually, of course, we function on independent. We are an independent country now. So I think the US citizens, you know that if you want to come to Taiwan, you get visa from Taiwan, you don't get visa from China. You come to Taiwan, you don't have to apply anything from China. If you come to Taiwan, you use the Taiwanese currency. You don't use the Chinese currency. So basically, you just easily, naturally, just consider Taiwan is independent, because it is independent. And why the official name is still being called Republic of China?

That's one historical issue that the Taiwanese still try to fix. Which this problem has been dropped to Taiwan after World War II? After World War II, the Allies, which means the US, the UK, and France, and Russia, they decided to send the Shanghai Shaker Chinese Nationalist Army to temporary govern Taiwan, just like the allies send the US to the Philippines, send the US to the Okinawa. They, the allies send Chinese nationalist government to Taiwan. But in the meantime, there is a civil war in China. So that government being kicked out from China. So that government have nowhere to stay anymore in China. So they have to stay in Taiwan. So that's the problem. So that problem been kept in Taiwan for more than half a century. And we try to fix it because the allies didn't never come back to fix it. Never come back to take the trusty army out. So we have to fix it ourselves. So we are still in the process of fixing it. So but basically the people in Taiwan, we call ourselves Taiwan. We introduce ourselves that we are from Taiwan. We don't really want to get too much complicated historical problems that have been done to Taiwan last century. But China is not having any of this, right? China is not happy. We are fixing that, but the Chinese government right now they are not happy with that because which means we try to let the world know that we are independent. They don't want people to know that. So China is refusing to let Taiwan and to the UN. There any country that is doing diplomatic relationships with Taiwan, they're having China having problems with China

Yeah, so they're feeling very strongly that Taiwan is still in some sense Chinese property And they have no problem using their enormous resources to Push people around in this capacity Yeah, so that I think China tried to do whatever they can do to to confuse confuse Taiwan to confuse people about Taiwan, what is Taiwan do. So just like recently that they forced the airlines companies to change the destination, the names of Taiwan, the title of Taiwan in those destinations like you have to, because most of the airline companies least Taiwan is a country. So if you want to fly to Taipei, you click Taipei Taiwan. But now China tried to force many airlines companies that to mark Taiwan as Taipei China, to confuse people. So the people might confuse that also, Taipei is a part of China. So if I'm flying to Taipei, which means I fly to China, but maybe there will be some people trying to get visa from Chinese government. But it's totally, it's just confusing people, but it can't change the truth that if you are going to Taiwan get the visa in Taiwanese embassy not the Chinese embassy no matter how the airlines company been forced to change the destination. This is very smart of the part because you I mean you could see why people would be confused and they're trying to make it out that Taiwan is basically Hong Kong yeah even though it's a different system it's all part of the people's Republic of China They try They try to confuse people in that way. I mean, so let me ask you this, I was born in the Soviet Union. How do you feel when you see young people wearing shirts with like Che Guevara or now on them? This is a very difficult question for me because actually, if we don't go too deep in this question, I would say it's just part of the pop culture. And the people get used to, I think the pop culture try to explain history, history very simple way. No matter in movies, in music, in all kinds of pop cultural industries, industries. So I would say it's just pop culture. So I won't judge those people who wear mouse t-shirts or shake rather sure that you don't even know anything about that history because I consider that it's just a very, a, a, chain, and so on. Thin pop culture, but it's happened. It happens everywhere. Actually, there are so many people who wear some death metal shirts. Don't know anything about metal. Yeah, people just not wear shirts like that. Yeah, I can still recall that when I was in university, I saw those people wearing those shirts that don't really understand what the shirts mean or what the characters on the shirts mean have done. Sure. I try to have a chat with them. No matter if they have a mouse shirt or have a Czechoarra shirt or a death metal shirt, I always want to discuss more about what do they understand or not. But most of the time I found it's quite difficult for them to understand what I tried to share with them because I was too easy to get serious about those issues. And I've been too pushing. And then so I kind of get used to that. that's just a part of pop cultures I don't want to have a lecture for them but

basically if I have a chance, if I have a chance like having chat with you, I always want, I hope people can have always can share the feeling of empathy for more people and try to know more about the issues that you might not understand, but you might hurt people.

You might, those people, if you know what they have done, you might not worship them. And that's very important. So to know what's on your shirt, I think that's very important. So basically, now I'm in the middle age, and I'm a politician. I don't have time. I can't just be like what I was in the university. I can always go to people and try to have a lecture to them. And I always, in the public, I always try to come share with all the supporters and the people that try to have empathy. And I always want to share the stories of Dalai Lama, his holiness. I think he's really a good model for people that if you are looking for if if you are looking for a model it looks somebody like him not definitely not mal yeah yeah so obviously Tiananmen Square was a big issue with China not that long ago is there a fear that if things got too a war between Taiwan and China, I mean, they have the numbers, this would be absolute. So is this a concern, how far can we push them? I think, yes. I think Taiwanese people, we have faced these kind of threatens from China for decades. So it's always a very important, very heavy issue in Taiwan. So how we move forward carefully, optimistically, but still we are feeling ourselves moving forward. That's something difficult, difficultly balanced in Taiwan.

Yeah, if people want to know how to move carefully, but still moving forward, that's what we are doing for at least three decades. So you can see how much we have been through, how long, look back the more than 30 or look back the heaven century. have in century. How long we have been, how the length we have moving forward is quite progress. Progress. Yeah, quite a progress. But step by step, we still have to be very careful. Just like what you just said, that Tiananmen Square, it's something just happened two or three decades ago. And then there are many terrible things still happen in Tibet, in Hong Kong. And so I think for Taiwanese, now we are trying to not just moving forward carefully, optimistically, but also try to, yeah, not just moving forward carefully, but we need to be optimistically to share the feeling with those people who are still under oppression, especially there have been so many Tibetans and Chinese human rights activists and Hong Kong people came to Taiwan to to observate to feel what's democracy about and I think if we if we if Taiwan is too pessimistic then how we can inspire more people yeah so so always we in Taiwan when when I'm in Taiwan I always feel frustrated I I always feel that we are stuck here. We are going nowhere. But every time when I go out, I'll go abroad and to meet more people. I always feel that no. We are still moving forward. We need to be optimistic and to inspire more people who are suffering from world situation than us. You were the head of Amnesty International Taiwan for four years. For four years. How do you, and my background also is very much fighting for human rights and so on and so forth. I was on Fox when they were having this Singapore meeting with President Trump and Kim Jong Un. And they said to me, what's your biggest concern about the meeting? And I said the continued enslavement of the North Korean people people that's always my concern is what's having the people. How do you feel when you see people in the west talk about how oppressed and bad they are when you've seen real oppression and how bad things can actually get? How the eases are monger, okay, again sorry. Okay, so what you were at a fantasy international four years. So you know human rights and how bad it can be, you know, in especially in Southeast Asia, the human rights abuses, the poll pot. I mean, obviously that was before our time, but I mean these are huge atrocities. So when you hear people in the West talk about how bad and oppressed the West are, I mean, how does that make you feel? I know it's hard for you to criticize America not being an American. But it's sometimes it's very difficult because you, it's very difficult to compare who are suffering worst because we, I think we need to compare with we best, not the worst. So if we compare with those people who suffer in very bad conditions, no matter in China or in some Southeast Asian countries or in some Middle East countries, of course the West countries that have very much better conditions, and human rights protections in your societies. But we can still see those like refugee issues and all different kinds of issues that the advanced countries are facing have difficulties because the refugees don't go to Middle East because they have from there. They don't go to the Southeast Asians. So they go to the developed advanced countries and the advanced countries still need to try to learn from those countries who are suffering from the worst cases to think about what you can do better

because you are like an inspiration. Like what I just said, Taiwan might be an inspiration for Hong Kong for Tibet but Western countries are much more inspiration for more countries from worst cases. cases. So I think if the human beings are a family, if we are united together like

like a village, I think the people in West, people in the West can consider that you have more ability to support people, to help people, and to, with this direction that you do more, you can inspire more people in different parts of the world to do more. If those people in the West part of the world want to do less, then what the people in the West of the world can do, they don't have the ability to do anything. So I do believe that the people who share more developed or advanced lives, actually they can do more. They can contribute more. Aren't the existence of Taiwan a big problem for China in this sense? You have the People's Republic of China, you have Republic of China. Let's suppose I don't know anything about the history.

I look how people live here, I look how people live here. Here I can vote, I have skyscrapers in a developed city, there's no pollution, I don't have to worry about the police taking my family mill the night. And we are almost to pass the LGBTQ rights and the equal men's issue for you. And then here, it's like, I can't use Facebook,

I can't use YouTube.

Not that long ago, millions of people

were starved by the government.

It's not hard for me to make that choice for any person to make that choice. But for China, this is a big problem because they're saying our system is the best. And just across the water. And it's like, well, no. Clearly, it has nothing with ideology. It's as simple as, do you want to have food? You know what I mean? So don't you see that as also a big, that you guys are a big threat to the Chinese government? Yeah, I think that's why I do think that Taiwan is a pan in their ass. They don't really want Taiwan to disappear, because no matter what they force Hong Kong people, how they treat Hong Kong people, Hong Kong can easily take Taiwan as an example that saying that democracy is an option, not like what the Communist Chinese government saying that democracy is not an option for them. Democracy is an option for everybody. So Taiwan is like a shining candle for so many different citizens and the nations, people who under oppression from Chinese government. So I do believe that the Chinese government haters a lot. And I think that's why we need to. But they're right too. You're showing that they're liars. Yeah. Without even saying anything, just come to my house. Yeah. So that's what you just said that I think that's very important because the existence of Taiwan is so important that prove ourselves, prove to the world about that it's a worth learning case of Taiwan. And we don't really have to be so, for myself, my own opinion that we don't really have to be so aggressive against Chinese government. We just need to be polite, be reasonable, and be ourselves. And that's a, this kind of attitude has already been very disturbing for Chinese government. We don't really have to come, go to the government, so we don't really have to be antagonistic. Yeah, we don't don't really have to know we just Be ourselves and people like and my friend who's in Singapore sent me the question He said so it's it's very much divided by age So the older people might have more allegiance to China whereas the younger people are much more for Taiwan He's independence. What do we have in common with them? You know, even if we spoke the same language which we know it it's like their cultures are completely different. Why we're the same. So for he says the advice he would give to you is you're just going to have to wait and, you know, you know, this is something that's going to happen kind of naturally without any idea of conflict. Do you think that's a good strategy? I think not just, I think yes, but not just because that eventually the young people will take the lead for the country, but because I do believe all things, if we want to achieve a goal, we need a plan, we need patients. So I do believe, I always have a very, I stand for some value strongly, but I always have patience to look at the big picture and to let's try to move on with... I'm not the kind of people that expect things will happen tomorrow. And they certainly have a lot of patience, the Chinese government. They know how to keep in weight and buy their time. They're very, very good at this. But I don't think that the time will always on their side. But it's not on their side. Right, that's absolutely correct. So what is the level of free speech in Taiwan? I think we are one of the freest countries in the world. Now, it depends on according all the research that in the human rights organizations in these years, these decades. If you can say anything. But if you could change just a few things about China, what do you think would be the most effective things to liberate the people? Free information. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And that's already happening though though, despite what the government wants to say. They found their way. They find their way. The people find their way. Yeah. And I mean, this is also happening with North Korea. It's very hard. It's easy to say you can't read this book. You can't read this newspaper. But if I'm sitting here talking, how are you going to stop me? You know what I mean? you tell him, you tell her. And so on and so forth. Does it frustrate you how much focus the American Western media is on North Korea and China and how almost nothing is talked about with Taiwan? Not really, not really, because I think the compared to the conditions the North Korean people have suffered from. Of course, although we are even in Taiwan, if we can do something, like when I was the chair of MS International, yeah, we try to help some North Korean cases as well. So basically, I think Taiwan should, we have the ability to support, to help the international community, to contribute more, to help the people in North Korea, or the people in Middle East. So I would say that the thing frustrates me is not the world world not discussed about Taiwan, but North Korea. The thing that frustrates me more is that the world not always open a space for Taiwanese to help. We are trying to contribute ourselves in all different international organizations, no matter the environmental protection or the human rights issues or the health issues. All those issues we have ability to help, although we have been isolated from international society. But please, let us help. So I would say that it frustrates me more. Does it bother you how close you see President Trump being with China, or do you this is a function of it's smart to play diplomacy as opposed to antagonism? This is very difficult for me to say. Yeah, as a Taiwanese MP and no matter who's the ruling party in the United States, I have to be polite and optimistic. Yeah, but basically basically would say. I would say. Well, hold on, I'm going to say, I had this tweet. I always say this, I go, when you're discussing politics, anything that's said before but you can ignore. So it's like, oh, blah, blah, blah. So let's get to the truth. But here we go. Yeah, you've got the point I can't even now, I think President Trump has ruled the US for more than two years now. Almost two years. It's going to be two. Personally, I still can't really get the whole picture. But he's a nationalist? Yes, but I mean the whole picture of his diplomacy, different energy, I see yourself as a strategy. I can't really see the big picture. So I would say that I carefully, how to say, I always want our government, the Taiwanese government, to be very careful to deal with the government in the US right now, to make sure that what we can, how to strengthen both sides' interests, not being sacrificed for dealing with some international issues, because we are not in an international stage. We have been isolated in so many different international stages. So how we can protect our interest internationally but still strengthen relations with the US, that's quite important for us. So we can't be too naive, can't be too optimistic. We have to be very careful. And you also can't be too aggressive. No, we can't. Because you don't have that position. So the main party in Taiwan, are there kind of ones, they used to at least, they've toned it down a little bit, want reunification with China to some extent, right? They're much closer to them. You mean the previous one? Yeah. So you're this young guy, heavy metal singer, ponytail. Do they take you seriously or do they, how do they treat you? You mean the old club, the previous one? Yeah. The one who... Ha ha ha. That is a very conservative and pro-China party from KM team. And during the campaign, during when I run in my campaign, they didn't... I think they criticized me a lot about my outlook, about my ponytail, my tattoos, even my lyrics, my way of screaming and grouting. They criticized a lot on that in the TV shows. They can't really go deep, go to the deep discussions. Oh, just look at the sky. Yeah, tattoos, you know what I'm too. And the KMT politicians even said that, oh, anybody can scream like him. I think much better than him. You should come to my concerts. That's pretty fun. So that kind of discussions, actually, I think, make the young people want to support me more. Of course. Yeah, because those discussions are too ridiculous. But I think after I won the election, then there have been many politicians of the many MPs in that party now are my colleagues in the parliament. They're treating me very nice. I don't know if they will be like what they have been when I rerun next year. But so far, I think after I won the election, many of them they treat me quite good. I didn't expect that. Well, I think, first of all, I think everyone likes the winner. OK, that's one, right? And two is once they talk to you

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