For perspective on all this now, we get two views.

Evelyn Farkis is the executive director of the McCain Institute at Arizona State University.

During the Obama administration, she served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Eurasia.

And John Mearsheimer is a political science professor at the University of Chicago.

He's written extensively about U.S. national security.

Welcome to you both. And thanks for joining us. Evelyn, start us off here. I just want to get your

reaction to the Secretary of Defense's remarks, particularly this reversal of U.S. policy, saying the U.S.

does not believe that NATO membership for Ukraine is realistic or a return to the pre-2014 borders.

What do you make of that? And who does that benefit?

Yeah, I mean, first of all, Amna, it's tactically not really a move that helps the president in terms of achieving his overall objective, which is peace in Ukraine. Because by telegraphing

that our position is now closer to the Russian position, it appears, we are reducing our leverage on

Russia. And at the end of the day, everyone knows that if we want this war to end, the one person

who can end the war overnight is Vladimir

Putin. The Ukrainians don't want to fight, but they have to fight because they're fighting for their

sovereignty. And they won't accept any kind of trade of their territory without a firm security

guarantee. And a security guarantee without the United States involved will not stop Vladimir Putin.

That's the reality.

John, what do you make of that?

Well, I think it's quite remarkable what the Secretary of Defense said today.

He is basically saying that he accepts the Russians two major conditions for moving toward a peace

settlement. The Russians have said that before serious negotiations can even begin, the West

and Ukraine have to accept the fact that Ukraine will not be in NATO, that it will be a genuinely neutral country.

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