What was life like before we emerged from hunter-gatherer tribes and pulled ourselves into the civilized world?

Notoriously, this same question was asked by the great philosopher Thomas Hobbes in the 17th century. His answer,

the state of nature is a time of war where every man is enemy to every man, where all live in

continual fear and in danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish

and short. This is human nature. Left to our own devices, we are led to fight by

diffidence, competition and glory. Here our inner demons come out to play. Predatory, revengeful,

dominant and sadistic. We are survival machines, but ultimately the best way for us all to survive is to create a new machine.

A great Leviathan, viz, the dawn of the state.

Thirty years after Hobbes' death saw the birth of his rival, Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

It is here, at the origin of the state, says Rousseau, where human nature is corrupted.

Society is the curse of humankind.

In his own words, many writers have hastily concluded that man is naturally cruel and requires

civil institutions to make him more mild, whereas nothing is more gentle than man in his primitive

state. According to the axiom of the wise lock, there can be no injury where there is no property.

Be sure not to listen to Hobbs the imposter. We are lost, but we can find ourselves again.

In this episode, we'll be discussing the views of Hobbs and Rousseau with returning guests,

Stephen Pinker and Rutger Bregman. Stephen Pinker, professor of psychology at Harvard University,

is one of the leading thinkers in the field.

Stephen has an extraordinary list of accomplishments and awards, considered by many, including

foreign policy and Time magazine, to be amongst the hundred most influential people in the world today.

Historian and author Rutger Bregman is acclaimed for his best-selling book, Utopia for Realists,

and how we can get there.

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