Hello and thank you for listening to the history of World War II podcast Episode 291,

a two episode special. First interview with Taylor Downing about his book 1942, Winston

Churchill and Britain's darkest hour, and then the second, the British 8th Army is outfoxed.

Historian writer and broadcaster Taylor Downing author of such books as Spies in the Sky,

the secret battle for aerial intelligence during World War II, and Churchill's war lab,

code breakers, boffins, and innovators. The Mavericks Churchill led to victory. Comes on to discuss

his latest book, 1942, Winston Churchill and Britain's darkest hour. Most people think the

Britain's worst moment of the war was in 1940 during the Battle of Britain, but Mr. Downing puts

forth that 1942 when Britain was facing defeat on multiple fronts was actually the country's

darkest hour. Mr. Downing, thank you very much for being with us today. You're welcome. It's

pleasure to be talking to you. Thank you, sir. So this may be a strange way to start an interview,

but I have to say that I've been waiting for a book like yours for years. I've been waiting to have

this conversation for years because I completely agree with the premise of your book. I don't think

that the expression darkness before the dawn came about because of the events of 1942,

but it certainly could have. So I just wanted to ask how did you come up with this idea for this

particular book? Well, you know, Winston Churchill has always been a fascination. If you're studying

the Second World War, particularly the British War effort, really all roads lead to Churchill

eventually. You can't get away from it. He's a hugely important figure. Right. A larger than life

figure, a remarkable man. I don't think he would survive long in politics today. Right. I think

he'd be called a bully. I think he'd be called a racist. But anyway, he was the right man at the

right time. I say in the book that I feel that Churchill was around pegging around. He was the

right person. Britain needed somebody with his background, with his determination, with his

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